Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/02/Category:Peugeot Expert

Category:Peugeot Expert and others

see previous discussions at Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/02/Category:Opel Vivaro A and Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/02/Category:Peugeot Expert I

note: both Village Pump and WP:Auto have been solicited for comment on this discussion

Recently, the following bad category names were brought forward for discussion, but the original poster (Davey2010) withdrew their proposal and closed the discussion before a solution could be hammered out.

Regardless, the problem remains, in that "Peugeot Expert I" (and the others listed below) isn't a real name used for the automobile in question. I support the following renames:

Rename Category:Opel Movano A to Category:Opel Movano (1998–2010)

Rename Category:Opel Movano B to Category:Opel Movano (2010–2021)

Rename Category:Opel Movano C to Category:Opel Movano (2021–)

Rename Category:Opel Vivaro A to Category:Opel Vivaro (2001–2014) (some evidence that A/B/C were actually used by the manufacturer, but not sure if this was at the time of sale or if it was back-naming)

Rename Category:Opel Vivaro B to Category:Opel Vivaro (2014–2018)

Rename Category:Opel Vivaro C to Category:Opel Vivaro (2019–)

Rename Category:Peugeot Expert I to Category:Peugeot Expert (1995–2007)

Rename Category:Peugeot Expert II to Category:Peugeot Expert (2007–2016)

Rename Category:Peugeot Expert III to Category:Peugeot Expert (2017–)

Rename Category:Peugeot Partner Mk1 to Category:Peugeot Partner (1996–2008) (may need to add Peugeot Partner Origin (2008–2013) for continuation of this generation past 2008)

Rename Category:Peugeot Partner Mk2 to Category:Peugeot Partner (2008–2018)

Rename Category:Peugeot Partner Mk3 to Category:Peugeot Partner (2018–)

Rename Category:Vauxhall Movano A to Category:Vauxhall Movano (1998–2010)

Rename Category:Vauxhall Movano B to Category:Vauxhall Movano (2010–2021)

Rename Category:Vauxhall Movano C to Category:Vauxhall Movano (2021–)

Rename Category:Vauxhall Vivaro Mk 1 to Category:Vauxhall Vivaro (2001–2014) (some evidence that 1/2/3 (not Mk 1/2/3) were actually used by the manufacturer, but not sure if this was at the time of sale or if it was back-naming)

Rename Category:Vauxhall Vivaro Mk 2 to Category:Vauxhall Vivaro (2014–2018)

Rename Category:Vauxhall Vivaro Mk 3 to Category:Vauxhall Vivaro (2019–)

This is by no means an exhaustive list! I have found several others in recent browsing that are equally poorly named and desperate for a rename.

Currently, there is no standard for naming automotive model year ranges ('generations'), and the following were some of the formats I was able to quickly spot throughout automobiles:

1. Category:Ford Thunderbird (fifth generation) (spelled generation) -- this used to be the standard according to WP Automobiles, but was changed in 2016 without discussion
2. Category:Fuso Canter (5th generation) (numeric generation) -- a variation on the one above but using number vs word form, seemingly a little less common
3. Category:Citroën Jumper (1994–2006) (year range) -- this is actually the main model of the Peugeot Expert above (note each manufacturer may have a different range of years)
4. Category:Ford Econoline (1961) (release year) -- a variation on the above with only the release year listed, matching one of the last changes made to the Automobiles WP, right before both the project and its only regular contributor went inactive in 2016.
5. Category:Mazda MX-5 (ND) (body code) -- adding official body code in parenthesis--this is what Autos WP was recommending for those cases where such codes are known and meaningful.
6. Category:Ford Mustang V (pseudo-suffix) -- adding a pseudo-suffix to the end of the model for each generation. This is the worst in my opinion.
7. Category:1974 Ford Mustang (model year) -- this is the traditional common way to refer to a specific model year as opposed to a 'generation', and appears to be in normal use like this so I wouldn't change anything at the model year level.

Having found that in practice, automotive categories are all over the map on which format is used, I believe if we are going to make any meaningful fixes, it should probably serve as a standard going forward. Not that all of these categories need to be changed overnight, but we should select a preferred format and let that percolate through the topic guiding new category creation and future renames as they make sense without needing a new discussion for every brand or model. I propose that the Category:Citroën Jumper (1994–2006) format (model name with production span in parenthesis) is the most optimal balance in light of categorization principles and the topic in question, for several reasons:

1. Made-up names posing as real proper names (such as Vauxhall Vivaro Mk 3) are an outright falsehood and should be eliminated.
2. "Generation" is not a universal term. While generally understood in the car community, it is only sometimes even acknowledged by the manufacturers and seems an exonym at best. Additionally, being a generic word requiring translation to read in other languages, it gets a negative from the i18n perspective. Numeric representation is perhaps a hair better than spelled out in this regard, but still, I do think avoiding 'generation' in the title (unless it really is in the official name) is best. Better than a truly fake name, but only a bit so.
3. Listing only the release year for a category that represents a range of years is problematic at best. It misleads users as to the contents of the category, for example, a 1965 Econoline would belong in Ford Econoline (1961). Additionally, for cases where there are categories for individual model years, we need to be able to differentiate between a category for a range of years and a category for a specific year.
4. Listing range instead of a single year seems to solve all of the previous issue without creating any problem, so is a much more comprehensive solution.

As for those using recognized body codes, I think it is okay to allow these to remain as they are, presuming that the body code is verifiably accurate and the model in question routinely is referred to in common usage by this code. The Mazda MX-5 (ND) is a good example of this as "ND" is routinely peppered into trade articles, online commentary and references, and even the company's own official literature. That said, if folks think this exception is a problem, I would be fine with eliminating it and simply applying the (year range)

In short, year range (as in Citroën Jumper (1994–2006)) offers the most concise clarity and best i18n while being clean and easy to both implement and use for experienced and new users alike. Josh (talk) 01:33, 22 February 2023 (UTC)