User talk:Joshbaumgartner

2006-2016 archive, 2017-2018 archive, 2019-2020 archive, 2021-2022 archive

Category:Hackerspaces_by_country_of_location[edit]

Hackerspaces by country of location has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category.

In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

čeština ∙ Deutsch ∙ English ∙ español ∙ français ∙ italiano ∙ magyar ∙ Nederlands ∙ português ∙ polski ∙ sicilianu ∙ беларуская (тарашкевіца) ∙ македонски ∙ русский ∙ українська ∙ ತುಳು ∙ ಕನ್ನಡ ∙ ไทย ∙ עברית ∙ 日本語 ∙ 中文 ∙ +/−

Ricky81682 (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Template:Usaf serial[edit]

I have run into a problem with Template:Usaf serial. The current US Army/Air Force serial number system was adopted in FY1922, which means that aircraft ordered in FY1922/23 will have the same prefix as those ordered in FY2022/23. This will lead to problems as the serial numbers are currently categorized by the last two digits of the FY. We will need to transition to categorization by the full FY in order to avoid conflicts for aircraft ordered a century apart. However, manually transitioning to this new system would be very tedious as Cat-a-lot cannot be used with categorization templates. Do you have any ideas about how to solve this problem? - ZLEA _T\^C 21:39, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I just learned that AutoWikiBrowser is available on Commons, so I've requested permission to use it. I think it may be the solution to the problem. - ZLEA _T\^C 21:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@ZLEA: That's an excellent point. I am not aware of anything before 38 existing under Category:Aircraft by United States Army/Air Force serial number, but still probably best to come up with a good answer to this before some earlier serials are listed. Josh (talk) 03:34, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I believe I did upload an FY1922 or 1923 serialed aircraft from a museum, but I never created categories for it. - ZLEA _T\^C 03:47, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And here it is. - ZLEA _T\^C 04:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've created a new template, Template:USAF aircraft serial, based on your version. Feel free to fix any problems you find. Once all the existing categories are changed over, we can redirect your old template to the new one. - ZLEA _T\^C 18:30, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

DDR Kategorien[edit]

Ich habe gesehen, das Du der DDR zugehörige Kategorien (z.B. "Geodesy in the German Democratic Republic", "Geography of the German Democratic Republic") in der Staatenleiste unterbringst ("topic in country"), in der nur gegenwärtig existierende Staaten aufgelistet werden. Die DDR war aber nur 1949-1990 ein selbstständiger Staat, danach wieder ein Teil von Deutschland und sollte deshalb auch nur dort mit den einzelnen Kategorien eingeordnet werden. Ansonsten müßte man mit allen ehemaligen Staaten so verfahren (z.B. Preußen, Sowjetunion. Osmanisches Reich....).--79.214er (talk) 17:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"By country" listings are not restricted based on the status of a country. There can be other indices such as "by current country", "by former country", etc. where countries of a particular status can be specified. Users should not be required to know what the status of a country is as a prerequisite to successfully navigating to it in the category tree. And yes, the Soviet Union, Ottoman Empire, Austria-Hungary, and German Democratic Republic, to name few, are well represented in a large number of "by country" listings without issue, and thus you are correct that if we have a category for say, geodesy in the Soviet Union, it should be listed in the geodesy by country index. Josh (talk) 17:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/03/Category:Sportspeople from Taiwan[edit]

Hi Josh, you should kindly give help even with this discussion which is stuck in a series of political claims -- Blackcat 19:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Please help to remove an improper category[edit]

Hi, after your edit, Category:Books from Taiwan was added an improper "Category:Books from China". Could you remove this? Thanks. 迴廊彼端 (talk) 17:09, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Done. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Josh (talk) 23:45, 24 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Subcategories in Groups of XYZ[edit]

Hi Josh

I have noticed your edits on some of the c:Category:Election apportionment diagrams files. I write this message to let you know that someone already created : c:Category:Election apportionment diagrams by number of seats. Do you think those categories should be subcategories of the "groups of XXX" categories ? For example like that ? I am not an expert on this kind of subject. Tpe.g5.stan (talk) 11:35, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Tpe.g5.stan: Yes, they certainly should--I see you added a few already. The names of those probably need to change, so I would

Rename Category:Election apportionment diagrams 48 seats to Category:Election apportionment diagrams with 48 seats , for example, but that's a separate issue. Thanks! Josh (talk) 11:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Templates[edit]

Hi Josh. I'm sorry to say it, but this looks really bad. It is adding unnecessary clutter to the page. The previous template is more discreet and elegant and it cannot grow as much, as it includes only the countries of a single continent. The map and country nav link are also totally decorative and unnecessary. Regards, tyk (talk) 19:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for the feedback. I agree that the map and extra country nav are extras that could go away. They are included because this is a feature added to a lot of countries. I configured it to only display if that feature has been built for a country. However, different countries' nav map/links display differently (and some problematically), which I do not like, so I am on board with just ditching this. As for the main nav list getting too long, this is already addressed by the ability to display a topic by continent if there are too many countries in the overall list. Josh (talk) 01:03, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Recently I spoke with Strakhov about that aesthetic issue and we also both agreed that previous continent-related templates were visually better. But I didn't want to annoy you with such details. :) By the way, template for science buildings cuts "by function" (it should be "Buildings in X by function", not just "Buildings in X"). --Orijentolog (talk) 00:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Done They should categorize under 'buildings in country by function' now, if the category exists. As for the aesthetics, I am happy to go with some different approaches for that. I am admittedly more concerned with the functional side, but I still care about the aesthetic side. Useability is key with instant identification of where you are at with easy navigation to parallel categories being the purpose. Josh (talk) 06:17, 7 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Good morning Josh. This looks awful.The template takes more space than the category itself. Stop spreading the use of this very large templates please. Regards, tyk (talk) 08:13, 12 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Are you aware of how to collapse? Josh (talk) 04:00, 13 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yes, but the point of the template is that is saves you 1 click by not having to go to the page's categories. So having to click to extend the template makes the template pointless. Still, the flag is too big and imposing, as well as the frames and the lettering. It's just not good design. It doesn't look better than the other one and it does not improve navigation either. Regards, tyk (talk) 17:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have also taken note of such changes by Josh. I don't care about the look, as long as the content is the same, but I find the templates only useful when uncollapsed. A collapsed template brings no advantage. For example, if I navigate between different districts, I have to expand (by clicking) every time to get to another district. That's annoying.

However, I also see advantages in these templates. They create the correct category structure and ensure that the categories are sorted the same everywhere.

Greets from Germany -- Triple C 85 ^{| User talk |} 11:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

That's a good point about having them already collapsed. I personally prefer the nav being un-collapsed when a user reaches the page--as you mention, making it start collapsed means an extra click to navigate which robs some of the utility of the nav in the first place. However, un-collapsing is still better than having to go to another category index, as un-collapsing a box does not involve another page load, which is still valuable for a lot of people with limited internet. Still, I think the 'main' nav at least should definitely begin open for easy use. In cases where a country is in multiple continents it can get a bit lengthy, so maybe having second, third, etc. continent collapsed is a fair compromise, at least for the moment. Note that whether a topic uses 'by continent' navigation should be set based on how many countries we currently have categories for. If it is a manageable number, then there isn't much value in breaking down by continent, but if nearly every country is covered, that list is pretty long, so 'by continent' breakdown seems to make sense.

I will say that there are some issues with display of templates in general using the new Vector 2022 skin in a narrow browser window, particularly when using a sidebar-style template such as {{Wikidata Infobox}} on the page. The problem is that Vector 2022 uses both left and right sidebars for other content and the screen width available for the 'article' content is severely limited. Add the {{Wikidata Infobox}} template which essentially becomes a third sidebar, and this means all other templates and content have to fit in a narrow remaining column. This can be mitigated to some extent by placing sidebar templates (such as {{Wikidata Infobox}}) at the bottom of the template list, but this is a bad compromise for normal use, as that infobox in particular should not be buried lower on the page. Unfortunately, Commons categories were pretty low on the ladder of concerns when developing the new Vector 2022 skin, so if you regularly use Commons categories in a narrow-window environment, a different skin such as the old Vector will give a better result. Josh (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hi Josh, It's a lot of work you've done with the new templates bee the "Category:Archaeological sites". But I don't find them really useful, the old templates that were at the top are much clearer. Best regard,

Antoine.01_overleg(Antoine) 19:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thank you for sharing your opinion, I appreciate the input. Josh (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Countries of <continent> by name" categories[edit]

Hi, Josh. About these categories you recently created:

The template you used for the setup has defined these are metacats, but they are not meta categories. I'm not very familiar with Template:Category navigation, so could you take a look and see what needs to be done to use {{Catcat}} instead of {{Metacat}}? Thanks. -- Auntof6 (talk) 07:52, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Auntof6: Perhaps I am missing something about the semantics here. It appeared to me from Commons:Meta category that 'by name' categories would be considered meta-categories, at least for Commons purposes. However, the guidelines are far from clear about these, so maybe I'm missing some other contradictory guidelines. The reason I chose {{Metacat}} over {{Catcat}} is that {{Metacat}} offers some additional functionality in setting main category, sort key, and flat lists all with parameters provided through {{Category navigation}}. I could replicate some of that alongside {{Catcat}} instead, but I am wondering what the win is. Unfortunately, I cannot find any good documentation on what the differences are between meta-categories and 'categories of categories' (or whatever the correct name for a category using {{Catcat}} should be), so hopefully you are a bit better versed than me on this and can point some out? Josh (talk) 08:14, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I just had a look at Commons:List of meta category criteria. Again, as far as it appears to me on reading the rules for inclusion, the categories listed above would pretty clearly qualify as meta-categories. Thus, I remain genuinely curious to learn more as if it is true that the above are not meta-categories, than clearly the documentation we have needs to be updated as a result. Josh (talk) 08:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The "by name" categories are confusing and often problematic. Some of them are metacats and some are not.

The whole purpose of meta categories is to group different things that have something in common. Each subcat of "Rivers by country" is for all rivers of the indicated country. Each subcat of "Vehicles by brand" is for all vehicles for the indicated brand. A by-name category that does this is Category:Hotels by name. Each subcat there (many of which are named "Hotels named <foo>") is for any and all hotels with the indicated name, so each subcat groups hotels by name. This category could have been set up to be for individual hotels, but it wasn't.

On the other hand, some by-name categories are set up so that each subcat is for one individual thing. The country-by-name categories (not just the ones I listed, but others as well) are a good example of this because there are no two countries with the same name. Each subcat is for one individual country, so it is not grouping multiple things with the same name. Another by-name category that is not a metacat is Category:People by name. In cases where there are multiple people with the same name, we qualify the category name (see the entries on the disambiguation page Category:Karel Beneš for examples).

The confusion happens because we use the word "by" in two different ways. With metacats, it's a short way of saying "grouped by". The other is the way we might say "I call her by name", meaning "I use her name when I talk to her". Categories like this include people by name, TV channels by name, and many others. Because there are those two ways of using "by", looking at the category name doesn't tell us which option applies: you have to look at the contents to know. I think renaming metacats to something like "Rivers grouped by country" would fix this confusion, but of course that would be a huge job and few people would support it. Another option would be to rename the non-metacats to something like "Individual countries of Africa" (instead of "Countries of Africa by name"), but that could also be a lot of work.

There are, by the way, some criteria other than name that are also not metacats. These include (sometimes, depending on how the category is set up) by serial number, by registration number, by title (such as for books or works of art), and probably others.

I hope this helps. -- Auntof6 (talk) 09:05, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Auntof6: Absolutely. So if I am reading you correctly the difference you are citing is essentially thus:

Category by criteria where ~~the~~each sub-categor~~ies~~y covers a number of topics = Meta-category
Category by criteria where ~~the~~each sub-categor~~ies~~y covers a single topic = Not a Meta-category

Is this correct? Josh (talk) 16:25, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I would say "where each sub-category covers", just to be clear that we're talking about each individual subcat and not all the subcats put together, but other than that I think you've summed it up well. I feel like thanking you for coming to my TED talk! -- Auntof6 (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Auntof6: Noted, concurred with, and changed. Josh (talk) 23:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

So I am looking into how to adjust the template and the question arises: what do we call these non-meta-but-act-and-look-like-meta-categories? Josh (talk) 23:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I've always just thought of them as categories requiring permanent diffusion to zero, but I've never known them to have a particular name other than that. If they need a particular name, maybe "categories that should not contain files"? I can't think of a name that's short like "meta category". -- Auntof6 (talk) 01:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]